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Serellan

TAKEDOWN: Red Sabre, a video Post-Mortem

83 posts in this topic

Finally had time to see the whole video. It gives an interesting little insight in what it's like to make a video game as a small indie developer. You guys sure had some bad luck. If only something like Steam Greenlight was out back then.

I think you give those whining brats on the Steam forums too much credit really. What is sad is that your video explains a thing or two about making your game, but probably most of the biggest whiners won't even watch the full video because they find it too long.

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Coming to check here after a long time. Crazy to hear that people actually send death threats for this :o 

 

I'm an old Rainbow Six fan, played the very first and all of the sequels back in the days. I was stoked to hear about Takedown. And for me it delivered, those few matches I were able to play were exactly what I wanted. After patches it really was what I had paid for. The only reason I didn't continue to play, was the lack of players. The sole reason. So in fact, it was gamers who killed the game. Devs did their part eventually, it's just that kids these days have attention span of a goldfish. I'm still willing to play Takedown over most AAA shooters, if there would be people to play with.

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I'm still willing to play Takedown over most AAA shooters, if there would be people to play with.

Me too. Maybe somebody should should set a time and date for the true fans to play together, without annoying griefers. Edited by ORFJackal

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I'm still willing to play Takedown over most AAA shooters, if there would be people to play with.

 

Same here. I think the game has great potential to be played with focused players who want to work as a coordinated team. My steam name is Wolfman. Don't hesitate to add me if any of you want to play.

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Same here. I think the game has great potential to be played with focused players who want to work as a coordinated team. My steam name is Wolfman. Don't hesitate to add me if any of you want to play.

 

 

Me too. Maybe somebody should should set a time and date for the true fans to play together, without annoying griefers.

 

If you are interested me and 4 of my team members have TDRS on xbox 360, we do a game night every Saturday. Not normally just on take down but i normally try to start with TDRS between 2000h - 2100h zulu but there is often no one on the game when we play.

if any of you have it on 360 you are more than welcome join the game.   

or if you would like to organize feel free to msg me on xbox my GT is Col Hague

Edited by Col. Hague

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My steam name is Wolfman. Don't hesitate to add me if any of you want to play.

Which Wolfman? There are nearly 2000 with that name. Here is my Steam ID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/orfjackal

if any of you have it on 360 you are more than welcome join the game.

Unfortunately I'm only on PC.
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So, here's a nice little 2 month necro, but I'd really like to see some sort of SDK released for this, and the ability to make some mods.  I look at this game, and I see a lot of potential.  That potential is such a tease, because it seems there's no way to move forward.  If you openned things up to the mod community to make guns, gear, levels, and AI code, I can only imagine what this could become.  Look at Arma for example.  While it was already a sandbox style game with a built in level editor, it was also very accepting of 3rd party mods.  Over the 4 games they have out, they have spawned a HUGE modding community that has done things no one could have imagined when they first created the game.  You have a survival horror rpg with Day Z.  You have a standard RPG with stuff like Altis Life.  You have completely new vehicles, weapons, and game mechanics.  Hell, someone even created a 'space engine' for it so they could travel to the moon or something.

What I'm getting at, is that the community you are marketing to, the 'tactical shooter community', is a niche market, but it is a cult following.  We are desperate for a way to get our fix for tactical shooters that we had back with Rainbow Six Rogue Spear, SWAT 3, and Ghost Recon.  If you open it up to the community, you'll see things happen, I promise.  Look at what happened when a mod group decided to upgrade Ravenshield to 2.0.  It was so great that UbiSoft shut them down.  

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Great post man. All very true. This is one reason that I will not spend another dime until a stellar product is delivered. If you look back, we were promised all of these modding tools. It has been over a year since the release. WHERE ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU PROMISED?? This game could have been saved by the modders if they were given the correct tools. Instead of this "new project", how about actually fixing this one?

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The TL;DR is 505 Games owns the rights to the Takedown Red Sabre franchise. 

 

At least from what I have gathered on how publishers work. I could be wrong. But that could be why they have not updated the game.

 

If they do kickstart or Early access this new project. Which I would recommend a Kickstarter.

 

I would fund this with a good chunk of money :)

Edited by HeadClot

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The TL;DR is 505 Games owns the rights to the Takedown Red Sabre franchise. 

 

At least from what I have gathered on how publishers work. I could be wrong. But that could be why they have not updated the game.

 

If they do kickstart or Early access this new project. Which I would recommend a Kickstarter.

 

I would fund this with a good chunk of money :)

I now understand this. I didn't understand this when I purchased this game, or even a month ago. However, my ignorance of this fact does not change the fact that the developer of this game promised these things multiple times. We didn't just start demanding these things out of the blue. This leads me to one of two conclusions: Ether Serellan promised us things that he knowingly couldn't deliver, or he is ignorant to the ways of publishing games. Either way, what makes you think that this new project is suddenly gonna become what we want? Is Serellan suddenly flush with cash and investors? What exactly has changed to make you all warm and fuzzy regarding this new project?

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I now understand this. I didn't understand this when I purchased this game, or even a month ago. However, my ignorance of this fact does not change the fact that the developer of this game promised these things multiple times. We didn't just start demanding these things out of the blue. This leads me to one of two conclusions: Ether Serellan promised us things that he knowingly couldn't deliver, or he is ignorant to the ways of publishing games. Either way, what makes you think that this new project is suddenly gonna become what we want? Is Serellan suddenly flush with cash and investors? What exactly has changed to make you all warm and fuzzy regarding this new project?

 

Takedown was treated as a retail (Boxed copies) release NOT a digital release.

The publisher involved (505 Games) has a history of Pushing games out before they are done. See Ashes Cricket 2013 which was FAR from done. So far from done that they pulled it from steam and gave everyone who purchased a refund. They then canceled several versions for the PS3, X360, and WII U it was that bad.

 

As for what has changed?

 

They have gotten allot more experience running on their own. I assume that they do client work (Make games and art assets for other companies). If they do not listen to us they will sink and go bankrupt. Which I do not want for a company that wants to do tactical shooters so badly. This genre is incredibly under served in terms of games coming out.

 

That said - 505 games did get a good chunk of the money if not all royalties from Tango Down if my Experience with publishers serves me right.

TBH - I want to give them a second chance.

 

This pretty much sums it up and is very true about Publishing Games today.

 

TLDR - Watch the video below - Should explain stuff about how the publisher / Developer model works  :)

As long as they do not take money on from a source such as a publisher/Investor like 505.

 

http://youtu.be/Rl-k9fISB7o?t=3m3s

 

Either way hope you give the video a listen. :)

 

EDIT: it is also worth noting that Publishers have ALLOT of control over the developer in terms of what goes into the game.

 

If Serellan goes to a publisher like they did with 505 games count me out. I have no problem with Investors. Just to clarify. :)

Edited by HeadClot
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Jtj. I am sorry you are not happy with, nor have ever been happy with our games. Im personally sorry we and I have not lived up to your standards. You feedback has been recieved. Im sorry I did not take time to explain to you how a dev/publisher relationship works. I'm sorry in general that you were dissapointed.

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I think you where pretty clear in the video, but I get the sarcasm ;)

Edited by roELjoe

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Jtj. I am sorry you are not happy with, nor have ever been happy with our games. Im personally sorry we and I have not lived up to your standards. You feedback has been recieved. Im sorry I did not take time to explain to you how a dev/publisher relationship works. I'm sorry in general that you were dissapointed.

You don't have to apologize. Just be honest with us. If mod tools and other things aren't coming, be honest and tell us up front. I get it. Things change, and his is a business. However, you are representing yourself as different than the other developers. To me, that means being honest with your customers.

This could be a very solid game if the modders were given a chance to turn it around. It appears that this isn't going to happen. Now that I know, I'm ok with this.

Look, you know that we are starving for a Rainbow Six style game. You know that this crowd is a very discerning bunch. If you need to change something or can't deliver something, be honest up front. We'll take it in stride.

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This is just my opinion and doesn't reflect anyone else's, but my impression after seeing all the information Christian has provided on behalf of Serellan, is that he did exactly what we've been asking for the entire time.  If we're asking for transparency, then it's already happened, and continues to happen.  I could've sworn we've been getting honesty and being told up front since the very beginning up until today.

 

The first release for mod tools has been out since March 6, 2014.  It took time because of both technical issues and legal issues (Epic Games needed to be okay with this, and I don't know if more parties need to give approval to allow for a more open license aka modding).  A custom version of the UDK is apparently far more difficult than it looks.  In fact, legal issues also prevent modding for consoles as well (which you can see in the link I provided above).  They released the map editor so quickly that there was no time to include a manual or documentation, but both Christian and Terry check the forums regularly to offer any technical support (I THINK it was Terry who offered to look at a modder's map at one point, because it kept crashing).  So we got a level editor with the developers' direct contact for help.  Yeah we don't have any other tools, and the level editor was difficult to work with, but one step at a time was the original intention, and it's not often that we get to talk to the people behind the company who produced the tools (or customized anyways).

 

So why aren't there further revisions?  Well...  No more publisher support.  Serellan simply doesn't have enough resources to go through more technical and legal hurdles (licensing for any other tools) to provide a working complete suite of modding tools like we wanted.  I should add that it took VALVe a few years before Worldcraft became stable (before the VALVe Hammer Editor, we had a customized version of the Quake map editor, as the Half-Life GoldSrc engine was a variation of the Quake engine).  And at THAT time, I can assure you VALVe had more resources than Serellan (I'd say they had staff in the 20s-30s during those years with money from both Gabe's time at Microsoft, as well as the sales of Half-Life).

 

Look, what I'm trying to say is, I don't understand why we are all asking for more transparency, when we're given more information than what a typical customer is supposed to be privy to.  This business isn't supposed to give us full disclosure on what happens in the office, access to all licensing documents, and contract agreements, and I know you all know that.  But then how much more up front can they be, outside of the post-mortem video and the upcoming announcement (which presumably includes Project Epsilon or whatever the final title may be)?  I don't even know how Serellan has the funding to work on Project Epsilon when there were times that Takedown sold for less than what a homeless fellow on our street makes a day playing his guitar (I've seen the price go down to $1 more than once, and that $1 gets split between multiple companies).  Contract work isn't something they can share, but I can think of that being the only way Serellan isn't shut down.  The survey at this point is asking us if we're here to stay, or if they should disband and cut their losses.  I'm glad you're here to stay, and you're not trying to tell Serellan to give up, but I'm also trying to understand what we're asking from them.

 

If we want to be heard, lets work out what we can expect, and can not expect due to what Serellan is capable or allowed to do.

Edited by K-16
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The reason that I found this website and purchased the game was because I got an email from one of the old Rainbow Six forums that Takedown was being made.  It was billed as a tactical shooter in the mode of the classic R6 series.  I was in.  I missed the kickstarter, but ordered it on steam as early as I could.  Before all of that though, I participated with other forum members to get the word out that this game was coming.  Everyone here was pretty psyched that we were going to get back to the core gaming principles that had us playing the R6 series for like 10 years.  All of us were very vocal in our support for this project.

 

We all know that Takedown didn't deliver this.  For various reasons.  I think that all sides can agree on this.  So my question is why are we talking about new projects and sci fi stuff? Why not build us the tactical shooter that we expected to play?  If you're just plain burnt out on the concept, then tell us so, and we'll move on.  But I'm here to kick in doors and double tap tangos.  I thought that's why everyone else is here too.  

 

That is what I mean by honesty and transparency.  Look, you dudes have had a tough year.  I get it.  Anyone with a heart will have a sense of compassion.  And yes, there is a whole lot going on behind the scenes that guys like me never know about.  But you came to us and said support me as I build this game.  We'll do it together.  And we did.  Keep going.  Build upon this.  Get better.  That game wasn't that far off, and to be honest, had the modding community been able to step in, I might still be playing it.  Some here may just shrug it off and move on.  But us hardcore guys will always feel a bit slighted if you move in a different direction.  This isn't just about a game.  It's about the whole state of the gaming industry, and what they produce.  

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Let me try to address each issue one by one (and thank you for explaining what's on your mind, so we can work out what we should ask from the people at Serellan):

 

1. The Kickstarter tagline below the video says, "Join the game designer of GRAW and Halo Reach to help create the spiritual successor to the original Rainbow Six and SWAT4."  So yes, Takedown is meant to be in a similar genre as Rainbow Six and SWAT 4, so I agree that people correctly intepreted this as a tactical shooter in the mode of the classic R6 series.  What Serellan intended to produce was to "focus on realistic weapons modeling, squad based play, in a close-quarters battle setting. You will plan your insertions and routes before going into the scenario, outfitting your teammates with weapons and equipment of your choosing, and then execute the mission. If one of your team members is killed, they are gone, and you have lost their valuable experience, so you have to be careful! Gameplay modes include single player, co-op, and competitive multiplayer."

 

For the most part, this is in the game, except people had issues with movement while leaning (removed due to bug), prone (also removed due to bug), AI (lack of development time to polish it), matchmaking (Steam wasn't playing nicely, but this was eventually fixed), and planning phase (we expected a better GUI for planning purposes, including an interactive map and a waypoint plotting system).  Overall, our expectations and what was actually promised were two different things (though I feel bad for the PlayStation community as PS3 was expected, but dropped due to lack of a publisher supporting this platform).

 

I too wanted a better interface for the planning phase, with more features to make a proper plan, but I also wasn't expecting the game to come out in a year.  Christian has clarified a few times in video Q&As that the planning phase allows you to select your insertion point, and the video cutscene will show you a general layout of the area, so after finding out about the game's release date, I assumed that was the extent of the planning phase as there wouldn't be anymore development time for new features.  I don't remember if there were any consequences for your teammates being killed in action.  I think I'll fire up the game again and find out.  Overall though, what they said was pretty much what was released, though the AI certainly needed more development time to be working as intended.  If we wanted more, then it was our imagination and not Takedown's Kickstarter promise.  Speaking of Kickstarter, it kind of sucks to hear Serellan pledging to donate 5% of profits back to other Kickstarter projects.  I mean, money's tight enough as it is.

 

2. New projects and Sci-Fi stuff?  If you meant Project Pi, then there are two videos that explain this (post-mortem and the What is Pi?), but the gist of it was that Project Pi was developed after Takedown's release, where a publisher was interested in that kind of game from Serellan.  The plan was to have Project Pi financially support Serellan, so Takedown can continue to be supported.  Unfortunately the publisher pulled out, leaving Serellan with a prototype made in Unreal 3.  With 505 Games' support of Takedown ending (official servers already switched off, thank God for dedicated server files), Serellan gave us a survey to help them decide what to do with this prototype, if anything.  Based on what we've said, they're putting Project Pi on hold, so I don't think they're abandoning tactical shooters.  Project Epsilon was also developed at some unknown point in time, and the teaser concept art seems to imply that it's a tactical shooter.  I would wait for their official announcement on what happens next, and perhaps they'll give us more details on what Project Epsilon is.  I'm also interested in finding out when they worked on such a project.

 

Also worth mentioning that the forum community did warm up to the idea of Project Pi and how a tactical shooter can be made later into the future using profits from Project Pi.  Look at the Project Pi thread to see what I mean, so the demand really was there for a change of pace at the time.  Well, that is until Christian told us the survey was at a three-way split (see the Future of Serellan thread), and a massive demand for tactical shooters suddenly showed up.

 

3. So I'd say they're honest and transparent given what I've learned from them.  As for compassion...  This is the internet.  We're about vitriol and not compassion (though I'm glad there are charities like Child's Play, AGDQ/SGDQ, NES Marathon, Mario Marathon, The Speed Gamers, etc. to restore a bit of my faith in society and humanity).  I mean, I know I'm being a pessimist here, but...  YouTube comments and 4chan...  And if Serellan shares their E-mail inbox with us, I imagine it's full of hate mail and threats.  As for the modding community, well the tools just aren't complete.  We have a level editor that never left beta because again...  Lack of publisher support means lack of funding means lack of revisions (and lack of additional tools for other parts of mod development).

 

So why not save up money to continue patching up Takedown and complete the mod tools?  Well there's already the bad first impression so there's not enough players playing to justify spending more money to support it, there's legal issues when it comes to producing tools that can modify licensed technology so Serellan would have to go through more hassle just to get permission to produce them, and then there's technical issues to deal with in order to make the tools feasible enough for us to work with (I'm guessing it's hard to develop tools to work with the middleware they used).  Serellan believes in the modding community (helps to know that Christian started off as a modder, so he understands you VERY well), but it takes a lot of resources to support them.  Lets put it this way, AAA companies prefer to sell their own mods as DLC or microtransactions, because releasing tools is less profitable and more work in their eyes.  Imagine the impact it has on a small team like Serellan who still managed to release a tool.  (Personally I'd argue that free content is justified with increased sales of the base retail game well after its initial release, but that's whole other argument that I don't wish to engage with AAA companies.)

 

 

On an unrelated note, Takedown was almost a F2P game when funding during development started to run out, but Christian stuck to his guns and said no to a Pay 2 Win model.  The unfortunate part (as explained in the post-mortem) was that the game was treated as a retail release instead of a digital release, but at the same time, the TIMING of its release was pretty much slightly after Early Access was even a feature for Steam.  Serellan literally released their game right when newer and better options for digital distribution was available (console indie policies improved, Early Access, etc.).

 

I hope this helps clarify some things.  I think our perception of Serellan doesn't necessarily reflect what actually happened.  And remember that we have a survey to influence their decisions.  That's not something developers do.  Harmonix did one recently for Rock Band, and as much as I appreciate it, their questions are too leading to give customers any real control, as they're gauging demand based on how much we like DLC.  Serellan made a survey asking, WHAT THE HECK DO YOU WANT FROM US?!  While some of their questions are too limiting for me to explain my real thoughts, I'm okay with that.

Edited by K-16
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It's very simple with me. I want a modern version of the Rainbow Six series from its inception, up through Ravenshield. Obviously, you can't call it Rainbow Six (thankfully!), but you get the point. I want teams, and pre mission planning. I want different maps from different parts of the world. I want tactical realism and immersion. Takedown didn't provide this for me. Sorry, but it's true. I want total control over my team. I want to choose their weapons and their gear. I want two full squads of teammates and alternates with specialties. I want real room clearing.

It's looking like this won't happen from these guys. Ok. Fair enough. But remember, you came to us. You can't throw the "Rainbow Six" name out there and then backpedal like that. That's called being misleading, and it is probably the source of the internet vitriol. If I say that a basketball player is the "spiritual successor to Michael Jordan", he better be all world. Takedown never came close to being a "spiritual successor to Rainbow Six". Yet it was advertised as such.

I say either make the game that we wanted, or move on. But know that by moving on, guys like myself won't be moving on with you.

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Jtk. You want R6 with cod/bf detail. Other people want S4 with cod/bf detail. Other people want GR with Cod/bf detail. Other people want socom with cod/bf detail. You are not we.

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Honestly, I'd take any of those games. All were good solid shooters and most of all were very fun!

Choose 1, build it, take my money. Make an expansion pack. Take more of my money. Take my buddies' money too. For years upon years....

Those games that you named are all classics. Do you honestly believe that the R6 crowd wouldn't love an updated version of SWAT or SOCOM? I'm partial to R6. But I'd play any good tactical military shooter available....

Edited by Jakethejake
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Honestly, I'd take any of those games. All were good solid shooters and most of all were very fun!

Choose 1, build it, take my money. Make an expansion pack. Take more of my money. Take my buddies' money too. For years upon years....

Those games that you named are all classics. Do you honestly believe that the R6 crowd wouldn't love an updated version of SWAT or SOCOM? I'm partial to R6. But I'd play any good tactical military shooter available....

 

Same here - Would buy as long as it is a good game. :)

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It's very simple with me. I want a modern version of the Rainbow Six series from its inception, up through Ravenshield. Obviously, you can't call it Rainbow Six (thankfully!), but you get the point. I want teams, and pre mission planning. I want different maps from different parts of the world. I want tactical realism and immersion. Takedown didn't provide this for me. Sorry, but it's true. I want total control over my team. I want to choose their weapons and their gear. I want two full squads of teammates and alternates with specialties. I want real room clearing.

It's looking like this won't happen from these guys. Ok. Fair enough. But remember, you came to us. You can't throw the "Rainbow Six" name out there and then backpedal like that. That's called being misleading, and it is probably the source of the internet vitriol. If I say that a basketball player is the "spiritual successor to Michael Jordan", he better be all world. Takedown never came close to being a "spiritual successor to Rainbow Six". Yet it was advertised as such.

I say either make the game that we wanted, or move on. But know that by moving on, guys like myself won't be moving on with you.

 

I've fired up the game again (PC version) for two reasons.  The first is to see if Takedown already contains anything you wanted in a tactical shooter.  The second is to come up with a theory as to why TotalBiscuit has yet to re-review the game and take down the PSA; this theory is for primarily for myself as it isn't like TotalBiscuit to simply forget to come back to the PSA, and continue to express his disappointment on a couple of TGS Podcasts/Co-Optional Podcasts.  This was someone who loved the game at PAX, is a fan of tactical shooters and wants the genre to come back, backed the Kickstarter, and made a preview video gushing about the game before the originally planned "###### is...?" first impression.  So this confusion was something I wanted to figure out for myself, but needed to replay it after all the patches have been installed to get a better idea.  But first, lets cover your requests Jakethejake.

 

You want teams?  Ok, then I agree that Takedown at this time only offers you control over how many teammates you want in the one and only squad (however you do get to choose specialties, more on that later).  They don't have a multi-squad system, and I imagine that would be a nightmare to program AI for given the actual development time they had for both PC and Xbox 360 (pathfinding without any player guidance is just shuddering to playtest and bugfix).

 

As for pre-mission planning, as I said before, pre-mission planning is in the game, but the interface or GUI isn't what we expected.  Technically speaking, we do get to choose our own weapons, grenades, and equipment, we can watch the briefing video, and listen to or read the text description, and we can choose our insertion point to decide where to begin.  What we expected (provided they had 3 years to develop ONE platform) was loadout selection for individual teammates, squad assignments, more weapons and gadgets for loadout selection, interactive map with highlights on points of interest (with the briefing video integrated into it), and insertion points shown on the map rather than pictures of the area.  To be honest, the pre-mission planning Takedown provides is actually more functional than SWAT 4.

 

I mean sure, SWAT 4 has multi-squads and individual loadout selections, but their mission briefing is just text with Sonny Bonds talking to you as a disembodied voice, and a slightly zoomable blueprint/paper scribble that you can't do anything with it.  I feel pretty confident to say Takedown uses a similar pre-mission planning as SWAT 4, but with a briefing video to give something more useful and better looking than a JPEG of a blueprint (or whatever it actually uses).  That said, Rainbow Six spoiled us with an interactive map, and that's why we all (including myself) feel like something's missing when we prepare for each Takedown mission (as well as anything since R6: Lockdown for that matter).

 

Different maps from different parts of the world?  I could've sworn that's what Takedown offers right now.  None of the maps share any specific location, and while the locations are fictitious (and therefore designed for gameplay), real-life locations would require redesigning for gameplay purposes, as well as sending people out to scout said locations (Google won't cut it as players will notice the difference) which costs more money that they don't have.  Right now, you have a modern lab location, a corporate office location, a freezing cold radar station location, a cargo ship location (likely inspired by the real-life pirates that hijacked an oil tanker), and a nuclear rod storage facility location.  I feel like there's enough variety there for an initial release.  If you meant you wanted to be deployed in various countries that go beyond urban environments, then that's more towards a AAA title and its larger budget (for instance anything from Call of Duty 4 onwards provides a huge variation of geographic locations to fight in).

 

Tactical realism and immersion?  Well the timer distracted me and broke my immersion, and I'm very confused as to why my medium kevlar vest is so effective in keeping me alive.  If the difficulty was toned down, then I'm sorry to the team at Serellan, but I should die for being stupid enough to eat four bullets as the tango wonders why I wish to test my allergic reaction to lead.  But outside of that I don't see where the tactical realism is lost.  You shoot or get shot.  Rush in and you will definitely get shot.  Running makes you inaccurate.  Crouching, moving slowly, and leaning at corners/doorways is a safe approach to anything.  If you have grenades, toss one in before breaching a room that is difficult to clear based on its size and layout.  Jump down like an action hero and watch your legs break.  What's missing?

 

Total control over your team?  Takedown offers this.  You can choose to have them hold position (watch as one or two stack up on doors when you tell them to hold), or follow you.  You can also tell them to approach areas offensively (going in hot) or defensively (moving quietly) as the Rules of Engagement.  Wished they would stop opening up nearby doors, but other than that, they wait for your approach to anything.  Perhaps you wanted go-codes or specific context-sensitive commands like "flash and clear" etc.?  More AI work means more time needed.  Individual loadouts?  Ok we talked about that already.  Would've been nice, but it's not in due to time.  I imagine tracking each person's individual loadout also uses more memory, which means more optimization work is needed as well.  What I didn't notice until I played a few more times, is that you can choose what specialties you want going into the mission.  Each teammate has a different loadout, and so far I've only seen the "Breach" loadout not get used, so choose your codenamed teammate based on what loadout you want coming with you.  I don't know if it's random or the same every time since this feature is quite hard to notice.  So technically specialties are in.

 

As for "real room clearing," I assume you meant breaching a room with multiple squads from different entry points at the same time to surround the enemies.  I'll admit the more complex strategies can only be done in multiplayer with friends, as singleplayer doesn't have enough AI-related features to do so.  Am I right to say you wanted room clearing to be something along the lines of the game Due Process?  To me, Due Process feels like the clearest way of expressing what an ideal example of room clearing can be (minus the comedy hijinks of multiplayer trolling) so check out the link and let me know what you think.

 

Also Christian is right when he says we all have various different demands, which makes it so confusing and difficult to make us all happy.  Any game Serellan produces will disappoint one of us no matter what.  Pages 3 and 4 of Serellan's Future asks for Rogue Spear or SWAT 4, but not both.  There's also a pretty strong demand for SOCOM-style gameplay in third-person for the PlayStation community in a couple of forum threads here and here.  Even my demand is all over the place as I would enjoy a 3D remake of

(enough names for the same game already?) which contains various different roles for the same mission...  Seriously though, please don't actually remake this game.  It's too silly for anybody but me to be interested, so ignore that (hey it was all I had before Rainbow Six was created).

 

 

Ok now on to TotalBiscuit which is thankfully significantly simpler in terms of my theory, but far more complicated to address if Takedown were to hypothetically continue.  TotalBiscuit is a huge supporter of the PC gaming community, and a personal pet peeve of his is whether or not there is an FOV slider to work with.  Various gamers including himself feel uncomfortable if the FOV is too low, and apparently everyone has a different FOV setting that they are comfortable with.  Furthermore, PC games are expected to have detailed graphical settings and sometimes sound settings as well.  TotalBiscuit checks these immediately and will bash ANY game lacking this INCLUDING AAA titles (in fact, he has bashed many AAA titles for lacking them, which is why games like Borderlands 2 improved on that immensely).  As of my experience in today's game, Takedown does not have detailed graphical settings to customize, nor is there an FOV slider.  If these options are available to edit in a console command or a settings file outside the game, TotalBiscuit will not count them.  He wants a menu in the game to conveniently change the settings as he sees fit, as part of the privileges PC gamers get to enjoy.

 

And finally, AI issues still persist.  Interestingly enough, TotalBiscuit has DOWNPLAYED it a bit and enjoyed the AI for the most part.  If it weren't for the community giving him a heads up, he wouldn't be looking for AI issues to begin with.  Simply put, the AI is a hit or miss.  Either they're realistically aware of what's going on and will try to kill you for standing out in the open like an idiot, or they're clueless as to where that loud noise of gunfire is coming from despite standing a couple feet away.  I've run into a couple of "deer in the headlights" moments in Biolab where the tangos are very slowly walking towards me.  I've looked through my scope standing out in the open, and the tango merely continues to walk menacingly towards me, but never actually firing until he got into my personal space and I popped a hole on his face.  But when the AI issues don't happen, then I rely on my unusually durable medium kevlar armor to absorb deadly bullets like a sponge, until I finally remember that I'm human and not Robocop as I crumble to my stupid stupid death for being way too reckless.  In other words, AI is for the most part fine if there was time to address the bugs in it.

 

The point is, if TotalBiscuit had more time and wasn't dealing with colon cancer, he would've given the game another shot provided the patch changelogs included additional graphical options (especially the FOV slider), and more AI bugfixes (I know some of it was fixed).  I did notice other issues were addressed, including improved loadouts, and multiplayer matchmaking fixed (TotalBiscuit didn't know about the Steam issues, and how designing the game to be DRM-free was an absolute nightmare).  But in the end, his promise was if ALL issues he mentioned were addressed, then he would reconsider giving the game another go, removing the PSA, and putting up a "###### is...?" video.  I'm sorry it ended this way, but I believe my theory matches his demands as he wants to represent the PC gaming community and uphold the same standards for indies as AAA (just not necessarily the scope of the gameplay or graphics itself as he does separate between the two sides and their differing budgets).  Again, I'm sorry it ended this way, but I hope this helps clear up a mystery even though I've been pondering about this mostly to myself.  I'm also sorry I joined the forums this late, as I should have said something during the patch updates when 505 Games was still supporting Takedown.

 

Personally, I find Takedown to have a solid foundation for a tactical shooter.  The core gameplay is done just right.  I just want gimmick features from here on to add to the game.   At the very least, it would've been fun to mod on and add our own gimmick features (provided the tools were more complete).  It's like putting our own pizza toppings, with the perfect pizza crust and sauce provided by Serellan (and right now, we're complaining that our ordered pizza is just the crust and sauce, despite being the tastiest thing we've had in ages).  I noticed that teammates were only identified by their codename and seemed generic enough for me to consider them expendable (like reserves in R6) and I find that I don't really care about their importance.  And unfortunately, the death of teammates has no negative consequence in subsequent missions, so I don't see any real danger to losing teammates unlike what Kickstarter's description implied.  But that's not really enough to be a showstopper for me.  I've only run into the occasional physics bug where a pistol shot sent a tango flying into the air, or weapons refuse to fall to the ground from killed tangos, but I don't mind them as SWAT 4 had similar physics issues and Irrational Games had more time and money to work with (I want to smack Ken Levine for letting the team make evidence physics client-side causing major desync issues to happen occasionally in multiplayer and preventing the mission from completing properly).  And that's pretty much the extent of my criticisms if it even counts as one.  I can only hope it won't be too much work for Serellan to reproduce the same foundation and core gameplay of Takedown for Project Epsilon.  Because aside from bugfixing AI and adding gimmick features, Takedown is perfectly fine.  I mean that.

 

Thank you for reading all of this.  Please go spend time with your family now.  It's getting late.

Edited by K-16
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Bro, if you believe this, then that's cool. If this game was everything that you said and more, it wouldn't be on steam for $4.99. Also we wouldn't be having this discussion. But hey, to each his own. I think that I'll say that more people agree with me that this game was a huge disappointment than a resounding success. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

I've said all that I need to say about this subject. At this point I'll agree to disagree, and move on. If they build a game in the future that I like, I'll check it out. If not, it won't be any skin off of my back. As of right now, I'm looking to others to carry the torch of the tactical shooter. Peace.

Edited by Jakethejake

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Fair enough.  Thanks for the taking the time to share your thoughts, and here's hoping Project Epsilon is what we've been looking for.  Oh and one more thing Jakethejake, was the game

closer to the kind of room clearing you wanted in a tactical shooter?  Ignore the graphics and map planning, I'm just asking about the room clearing gameplay itself.  I'm just wondering if my ideal scenario of room clearing is the same as the majority's, and I do believe your idea of room clearing is what many people wanted. Edited by K-16

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LOL.. ok i watched the Due Process video and i was laughing my ass off.. Game looks like it would actually be fun. I love the idea of just a planning out and attack defend a certain situation. Thanks for the link... LOL blue teams pre phase planning!

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