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bakesalee

What happened?

22 posts in this topic

Not really sure, but I think they ran into financial trouble and a lot of the team had to be let go.

We're unlikely to get a response on the forums, but if you contact Christian on twitter (https://twitter.com/serellan) he'll probably respond.

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I never left.  I'm just trying to get more of my friends to give Epsilon a spin.  Also getting a couple of more open-minded friends to experiment with Hotel Blind and see its unique appeal.  That one's not my cup of tea, but I can see this being interesting for certain people I know so I'm letting them know about it.  Other than that, just waiting and seriously hoping for good news from whatever confidential opportunities Christian is going after (hinted on his Twitter as Tom has shared with us, but I can't tell whether the wording meant a possible opportunity, an upcoming update to the game, or some other work being done).  Kind of sad to not see Terry around though.  His last tweet was to promote Epsilon.  His loyalty to Epsilon and Serellan never wavered, but alas limited funding from our lack of purchases.  I'm just sorry we failed Serellan as customers.  I don't really know what else to say other than wait and hope these opportunities (if any) make it through, while spreading word about these two games to anyone who is interested in this niche.  Meanwhile Christian is still being harassed like it's 2014 all over again.  So his year started out crap which is unfortunate.

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I wouldn't say we've failed as customers. Just by buying the game we've gotten on board. Sadly a lot of people are still sour from Takedown, and when you check the steam forums, there's too much needless hate on the front page. (I think we desperately need a community moderator to start locking threads and moving them to Serellangate.)

I've gifted the game a couple of times to friends who've said they're interested. I've shared Epsilon on social media, and a forum here or there. I want to believe that it all helps in some way. After all, if we could do more we would, wouldn't we? :)

I wish we could do more. And I wish Christian would break the silence and talk to us more.

Christian, if you have any plans or ideas that we can help with, let us know.

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I don't believe in it anymore. I also really don't like the fact that Christian is not posting here for so long. He said he wanted to be transparant, but I guess he changed his mind now things wen't wrong for the second time...

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15 minutes ago, Synton said:

I don't believe in it anymore. I also really don't like the fact that Christian is not posting here for so long. He said he wanted to be transparant, but I guess he changed is mind now things wen't wrong for the second time...

It's certainly disconcerting. I'm on the path to giving up if things continue this way.

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I don't know.  Feels like we had enough people in this community to convince the majority of potential customers that Epsilon is the tactical shooter we've wanted, and offers what Rainbow Six: Siege didn't, and isn't anything like Takedown: Red Sabre.  But for some reason, we didn't spread the word enough.  I mean, we did gift to other people and asked them to spread the word (most recently I've done that during the Winter sale), but in the end not all of us did that, and instead chose to wait for more content for a meatier game.  Thing is, we've hit a catch22 scenario where without more content, there won't be more support from customers, but without more support, there can't be more content because there's no more money to spend on wages and operating expenses.  I tried to get a gaming site to cover Epsilon, and they did stream an earlier build while giving the game a fair shake.  But the content wasn't enough to interest them, and they never edited the archive footage to post on YouTube as a preview, so it never got coverage and that archive fell into obscurity (aka deleted by Twitch).

The short answer is while downsizing the company, Christian was trying to build a proper foundation for Epsilon by focusing the majority of development on the framework and technologies of Unreal Engine (or that's how i interpreted it, so take my words with a grain of salt).  Unfortunately a lot of the stuff they're trying to integrate (again, foundation level so none of it is gameplay content or features, but rather more of a technical thing for better game development preparation), isn't very compatible and stuff continued to not work with each other.  With that much time spent, not a lot of focus was on gameplay features or content, so there isn't anything to show us.  And who knows if mods built by Unreal Engine tools (and lots of guesswork since no mod tools exist for Epsilon at this time) will work on their build of Epsilon with all those changes in there?  I mean, I imagine it's hardly similar to the current build out now at this point.

By then, money is short and something had to be done to prevent further financial harm to both Christian and Serellan.  Somehow, what started as a fun idea turned into a real thing.  Hotel Blind.  From what I understand, it wasn't a planned game to be made, but it was an idea that can be executed in a reasonable amount of time, and I think Christian did all of the work minus the voiceovers, including VR support.  I don't know if this was supposed to get them any financial support by selling it, but I do know their intentions were to show a perspective on what blindness is like, or how it portrays an actual story of a blind person.  However, the fact remains that I can't really see how that benefits Serellan specifically as it didn't sell very well, and received a very poor reception.  ~3000 owners at 2 bucks is...  Not sustainable at all.  Working in a fast-food chain gets you better financial stability in the long-run than 3K at 2 bucks each.  I think the reason why people were upset over Hotel Blind is because they wanted a more creative way to represent blindness even if it means being unrealistic.  Beyond Eyes is one great example, where despite playing as a blind person, the game is rich in graphics as it represents what the person thinks or believes what she is experiencing based on non-visual senses and her own common sense.  A Blind Legend apparently did okay, because that game is set in a fantasy world, despite having no graphics like Hotel Blind.  So apparently a realistic representation of blindness is...  Boring and we're too close-minded to care.  Damn it.

So here we are at present.  Christian continues to be harassed about his past, despite his intentions on a no BS development attitude and being transparent with gamers by meeting them at parties, conventions, YouTube videos, Twitter, Reddit, and here.  Heck some things he shares are meant to be confidential, but he did what he could to share it with us without putting himself in trouble.  If he gets injured, he shares a safety tip video while getting treatment at the emergency room.  He did what he could to work with us, so we would be more open to supporting him.  But in the end, Serellan as a company is kind of stuck right now.  They gave us a survey on what we wanted for the future, so Serellan would know what to make for the future, we asked for Epsilon, they made a build with whatever money they had leftover, and...  Nothing happened.  So what now?  I feel that Christian is stuck between a rock and a hard place.  If there's no opportunities for financial support, then Serellan has very few options left to work on Epsilon.  Either Christian needs to work at a game development company and spend his free time (if any, given he has a family and animals to care for outside of work) to work on Epsilon, or Serellan/Epsilon needs to be acquired by an investor/publisher/whatever, and Christian can work on it, but never own it similar to Takedown: Red Sabre.  Don't forget the current team is...  Well...  Much smaller than Takedown, which is why nobody is available for communications to us anymore.  At times like this, I miss Terry (more or less Christian's right hand man who communicates with us), but he has his own family to take care of, so being dedicated to Epsilon really depends on your ability to survive without enough money.  I mean Takedown's team is already small, but to go even smaller for Epsilon?  And then EVEN smaller now?!  I don't even know if they have an office anymore because rent costs money, and it's money that doesn't seem to come from anywhere at this time.  As a guess, and only a guess, with no reference to form this guess, I'm thinking it's Christian, Jorge (programmer), and maybe Seth (technical animator) leftover in Serellan (along with several off-site contractors).  Or they're people we have yet to be introduced to.  Christian tried to apply for an indie fund, but apparently Epsilon looked like a AAA game so they got rejected.  I'm not even kidding.  Christian could setup another Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign, but what are the odds of success?  Way too slim to be worth trying, unless they ask for like, what?  $250?

So now what is Serellan supposed to do?  Christian has bills to pay, and we have nothing but concerns to say.  That's why even I don't know what to say about any of this.  All I can do is hope for any financial opportunities for Serellan, while spreading the word about Epsilon and Hotel Blind to anyone open-minded enough to check it out.  I don't even mind if Christian works for a game company to cover his own expenses, keep Serellan alive, and work on Epsilon twice a month.  We can see an update in Holiday 2017, like a mod development style schedule where people work on their own time.  I know it's a retail game, but I feel like they're backed into a corner right now with little choice.  The price isn't very high anyway, so it's a retail game on a mod schedule I guess?  I don't know.  All of this is speculation at best, and not meant to put words into Christian's mouth.  And I am being subjective so please do take my words with a grain (or a bag honestly) of salt.

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Woah..

Yeah I'd like to think Christian isn't working on his own. I'd like to believe there are others supporting him, and that things are progressing very slowly at least. And I wouldn't mind at all if Epsilon was put to one side while the team sought out financial stability somewhere else. I'd love to see some modding be introduced as well. I'm certainly new to programming, but I'd love to try my hand at modding Epsilon if it were for the greater good.

I suppose we just need to be told what's going on. And how we can help.

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The main problem that happened was the foundational upgrades Serellan was trying to do since the last Epsilon patch update.  All time, resources, and money were spent trying to get Unreal Engine upgraded and get a better framework in there (for instance, blurring of peripheral vision when aiming down sights is an engine feature that requires Unreal Engine to be updated).  A better explanation of this was made on the State of Epsilon or Apologies and Update video on Serellan's YouTube channel (I can't remember which video off the top of my head).  Basically there were technical issues and incompatibility problems left right and center.  And it took forever to get anywhere near resolving them.  By that time the company was low on funding (since sales were infuriatingly low during its Early Access run, despite above average user reviews), and not enough resources were available to work on actual game content and features.  Technically they do have a few WIP weapon models revealed back when Feature Friday was a thing.

However, I can only guess it's not skinned, animated, and added into the game with proper balancing since that's something that takes time and money (or it's possible that it got rejected later in development).  And given how these were made a long time ago, I can only imagine they were put aside after the team got downsized again.  I don't even know if Deane works for Serellan anymore (she's the lead artist for weapons and maps).  Although I'm also not asking for confirmation from Christian regarding who is there and who isn't.  That's none of my business and my speculation honestly should be kept to myself, so I'll stop bringing that up now.

Back when they were working on features and content, you would see what they're up to by checking out their public Trello page, as well as ask questions on Christian's ongoing AmA on Reddit.  I think you still can see their Trello page now, but I haven't been there in ages, so no clue what they're working on now.  But given Epsilon's low sales, their focus has shifted to incorporate features such as co-op (something also mentioned in the aforementioned YouTube updates from Christian) in hopes to boost the community.  I should add that all Kickstarter backers for Takedown: Red Sabre got Epsilon for free, so there was supposed to be a decent starting amount of players in Epsilon already.  It was also supposed to help convince backers who felt cheated, that Epsilon is different, AND that Serellan wants to apologize to backers by giving them excellent service (with a free game at the company's cost).  I'm also wondering if their donations to Operation Supply Drop has affected their financial stability as well, because I don't actually know how game donations work.  Is Serellan sending a ton of Steam keys to OSD at the company's own cost?  Does OSD even take Steam keys?

The more I think about it, the more I feel like there's tons of information that we were already given in terms of how Serellan is doing.  The real question is how they're planning on turning this around, and I believe the answer is currently under NDA because a third-party may be involved, if I am interpreting Christian's intentional vague wording correctly.

Just know that Serellan has been through a lot, and it's hard to whip up a quick update on a monthly basis to keep us in the loop.  Especially when efforts should be focused on not going bankrupt.  But at the same time, I know I know...  Support the customers and the customers will support the company, in order for the company to continue supporting the customers.  It's a troublesome catch22 situation.  Make content that requires money to make money.  Even I'm curious as to what we can do beyond buying more keys, gifting, and spreading the word.  That and telling people that Hotel Blind isn't bad.

I don't know.  I really don't know how this is going to work.  I imagine Christian is frustrated with being an indie dev despite genuinely wanting to run an honest company that communicates with its customers and caters to customers' feedback.  I mean, back when he was with AAA development, he had a consistent salary.  Now?  He MIGHT afford to pay himself a wage once in a while, and he gets harassed by people, while constantly being reminded of his accident that damaged his face and part of his eye (orbital socket I think).  I just hope his family still supports Christian's decision in creating Serellan, because indie development CAN be rewarding through honesty and integrity.  Both of which Christian has been following to the letter.  It just seems like Christian has been fighting all by himself from my perspective, and he's probably wondering why it's even worth it.

That's why I will wait in silence and not worry too much if no news shows up anytime soon.  He has enough on his plate as it is.

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Yeah, I remember that clearly. It's a damn shame too, as engine upgrades are always great news.
I remember Christian tweeting about running into difficulties, and then it was addressed in the video. I hope he's managed to make some progress with that. I remember he was also having some trouble with Coop too.

And I agree, having an NDA in effect would definitely make it difficult for any news related to Epsilon in any small way be released. And I'm well aware that Serellan have been through a lot. I guess I just want to do everything I can to help make things better. I'm still suggesting the game to friends and acquaintances, and mentioning them to PC Gamer on Twitter, etc. Hoping things help.

Forgive me, you're posts are so long and I want to say so much, but never have the time to type out equal amounts. I agree with everything you've said, and I'll join you in the wait.

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Got a steam gift card for a belated birthday present this week, so I've bought Epsilon for a couple more friends and asked them to leave good reviews if they enjoy it.

Also tried applying a few more tags to Epsilon on the steam store. I guess I've done my bit.

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You've done more than the rest of us have.  You've also kept us informed of the latest news by contacting Christian.  Don't apologize for the quantity in your posts.  Your posts have quality through well-written brevity.  I just rant too damn much.  It's an irritating wall of text, period.  You're an incredible fan to Serellan.  Far more dedicated than I'll ever be, and you've done us all a great favor in supporting both Serellan and the tactical shooter genre.  And for that, thank you Tom.  We need as much of this community intact as possible.  Anything to remind Christian that he isn't wrong in his decisions in creating Serellan and making a niche tactical shooter.  Stay awesome man.

As a side note, I kind of wished we can do modding for Epsilon (to increase content while they focus on other features; almost like the community content updates for Team Fortress 2 and Natural-Selection 2, or weird crowd-development projects like Unreal Tournament), but I'm not sure what their build is, and how compatible any work with default tools will be on their newest experimental build.  DarkSynopsis did a ton of work already (more on Takedown I believe since no mod tools are out for Epsilon) and I can't imagine it's been easy for him to integrate it to any of Serellan's games.  Also with that said, I don't believe mod tools should be a priority at this time.  The only priorities are avoiding bankruptcy, and producing whatever the heck the majority wanted, which I think was coop.  Or was it more missions/weapons?  I don't really remember.

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Wow, thanks a lot Sergeant K! That's a huge compliment!

If I won the lottery or somehow came into money tomorrow, I'd invest and get this game sorted! But for now I'll settle for helping in any way I can. It's difficult to cut through all the sour comments regarding Serellan, and I fear that our support often isn't strong enough to outweigh the negativity.

Yeah, modding is definitely low on the list of priorities at the moment. I imagine releasing mod tools would also anger the pessimists over in the steam forum. They'd cry about how Christian is relying on the users to create the game. Coop definitely seems to be the most popular request. Or better AI or something. Coop would certainly rally my friends to play the game together, and would probably help build up the community a bit more.

Anyway, survival is key.

Christian, if you're reading this, do get in touch!

 

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4 hours ago, Tom said:

Yeah, modding is definitely low on the list of priorities at the moment. I imagine releasing mod tools would also anger the pessimists over in the steam forum. They'd cry about how Christian is relying on the users to create the game.

That's a very good point.  I can picture that happening with the internet being as toxic as it is.  And you're right about co-op as well.  Getting networking up and running will be irritating (though I'd like to think Unreal Engine has a solid netcode as a base to work with), but if Epsilon has enough exposure to make everyone aware that such a game exists, then co-op will boost the community, followed by more maps/weapons.  Might even get YouTubers interested.  It would create a positive domino effect provided it can pull some of the audience from Rainbow Six: Siege and even Ghost Recon: Wildlands.  It'll be challenging as I believe co-op Epsilon will then compete against those two games.  I know that Epsilon is different (especially IF co-op planning is feasible, as Due Process is the ONLY game to do it so far, as not even the original Rainbow Six had it for multiplayer), but the game will still be against the AAA offerings of "Terrorhunt" and that's where spreading the word will be more difficult.  It'll definitely be up to us and YouTubers to spread the word, as the media keeps ignoring Christian (he had to REALLY bug Kotaku to play Epsilon at PAX in the past if I recall correctly).  On the flip side, there isn't really enough content to entice the media either.  Indie studios need to offer something meatier to get coverage, unlike teasers of AAA games that the media analyzes the heck out of.  No Man's Sky and We Happy Few are some of the rare exceptions.

Point is, the media isn't likely going to cover the game even if we have a sustainable community from co-op.  And the game will be against AAA offerings that can scratch a similar itch (Terrorhunt).  So it'll be up to the community to spread the word as much as possible to keep this game supported and help people notice how different this game is.  Convincing YouTubers will be another challenge for us, but far more feasible than the media.  Otherwise, co-op is useless.

So I think we have a pretty decent idea of the state of Epsilon and the challenges it's currently facing.  The real question is, when will the NDA be lifted so we can get hints on what's going on behind the scenes?  For all we know, they might have secured funding and all of our speculation was hilariously unnecessary.  And we'll see a large team build everything, getting all features in, best tech implemented, and somehow the rights remain with Christian/Serellan with the game coming out in Holiday 2017 or Spring 2018 in super polished form getting 75%+ on Metacritic/Opencritic.  Who knows?  I can dream can't I?

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The internet already is toxic as hell. I think that's our problem. Haha

I've gave him a shout over Twitter. Probably won't respond, but it's always worth a try.

I think a lot of the veterans from games like SWAT and Rainbow Six will be easy to convert over to Epsilon if the game is updated a bit more. I haven't touched Rainbow Six Siege because it just doesn't feel right anymore, and I'm sure others are looking for a classic, tactical shooter as well.

Got any Youtubers you think might be worth contacting? I've always avoided 'Let's Play's and reviewers. I just stick to PC Gamer and other magazines. And in regard to the media, I think we'll probably have to do without them. I'll keep tweeting their accounts and suggesting Epsilon, but I don't think anything will come of it.

Haha, yeah you can definitely dream. I'll always hope for the best. Though I'd settle for a smaller victory at this rate.

I'll be so hyped for coop in Epsilon as well.

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The challenge is that veterans from games like SWAT and Rainbow Six already know about Takedown: Red Sabre, and they're not giving Serellan another chance.  And many of them are Kickstarter backers of Takedown, so they already have Epsilon for free.  I'm not sure how many hardcore fans of classic SWAT/Rainbow Six are not aware of Takedown (and as Christian brought up in an interview, WHICH Rainbow Six is YOUR classic Rainbow Six?  They're all different!).  Basically the remaining ones who haven't actually played Takedown are the ones we can try to convince them into trusting that Epsilon is different, but I can't imagine them being a significant number to truly impact sales.  I have a feeling the majority were backers and have the game already.

I know of some YouTubers who have unique shows to showcase games, especially indie games, but currently Epsilon doesn't have enough content for them to want to show it off, and there are other games that their respective communities are unanimously requesting for.  It would be easier to ask YouTubers after Epsilon becomes a meatier build, but the benefit is that I also know of some where the developers are online to answer questions during the show, and clear up any confusions the community/YouTuber may have.  Then there are indie game resellers like Chrono.gg, etc.  I remember somebody in these forums suggested Hot Pepper Gaming, where Christian would need to eat a ghost pepper and then try to promote the game while suffering (drinking milk and eating bread means you stop promoting and end your promotion there).  Similar to the Hot Pepper Gaming review (finish reading the review before you can end your suffering), except it's to promote indie games called Fire Sale.  But again, without more content, it's hard to get this game on anyone's radar for promotion.

Not impossible since there's already Let's Plays and reviews on YouTube, but difficult none the less.  I did convince one gaming website to stream the game on Twitch and commentate like a preview, but he didn't export to YouTube since he felt that it wasn't really substantial enough to garner further interest, so the archive expired unfortunately.  Once Epsilon has enough Early Access content to satisfy most YouTubers, then I fully intend on bugging the editor of the gaming website to give it another go.  Then I'll pass the word along to other places.  Right now, giving you my suggestions wouldn't get far namely because they have too many indie games to play, with more content in their Early Access state.  And many live shows require roughly 4 hours of variety, though some have circumvented this by playing more than one game on that day, in which case Epsilon could work but will suffer far less exposure, which is what happened to Blade Ballet and Super Slam Dunk Touchdown.

Another thing some devs have done, was spend time and money on doing custom mods on builds meant for YouTubers to use.  For instance, A Hat In Time has a custom made message for the show I follow.  LISA has the freaking YouTubers IN the game, which is actually a contradiction since one of them is a female and the plot is supposed to have only one woman in the entire world, so something happens to um...  Hilariously compensate for this.  The Stanley Parable demo has the narrator record lines specifically for The Game Grumps (in fact, I'd say it REPLACES 80+% of the original dialogue).  Custom builds are irritating work and costs time and money, but it will get you in a better position to be showcased and promoted, as well as have a chance to return for another show and gain further promotion.  And fans remember what you've done as they rewatch highlight videos and become exposed to your game again.

Of course the priority is obviously to focus on game content and not modding what you have that alienates the rest of your customers.  The modding idea is something to think about later, when you have a build that YouTubers will be interested in covering beyond a short blurb in a video.

And yeah I agree with you.  Media isn't something we can rely on at this point, and I'll take any small victory too.  I do like co-op so here's hoping things work out.  Thanks again for all of your efforts.  Much appreciated.  Stay awesome Tom.

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Yeah I guess you're right.

That Hot Pepper Gaming sounds absolutely brilliant. I'd totally pay to see that! Haha.

If Epsilon can have one more major update I think we'd be in a better position to contact Youtubers and others.

Creating customer content for the YouTubers sounds good, but I suppose it's a bit of a waste of resources that could go into additional content instead of currying favour with the YouTuber. Though it is a nice touch.

I have a friend who I met over at http://voiceacting.boards.net/ who does Youtube videos as well as voice acting. He's got a small channel but he's a nice guy, so I've gifted him the game and asked him to do a Let's Play of the game. That should get done next week, and that's another purchase to add to Serellan's belt.

I've also asked Bella Ryse for any news, as she's now Brand Manager of Serellan.

Thanks for having this discussion with me. Glad to know I'm not fighting this alone. :thumbsup:

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Quote

That Hot Pepper Gaming sounds absolutely brilliant. I'd totally pay to see that! Haha.

Agreed!

Quote

If Epsilon can have one more major update I think we'd be in a better position to contact Youtubers and others.

Agreed.

Quote

Creating customer content for the YouTubers sounds good, but I suppose it's a bit of a waste of resources that could go into additional content instead of currying favour with the YouTuber. Though it is a nice touch.

Agreed.

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I have a friend who I met over at http://voiceacting.boards.net/ who does Youtube videos as well as voice acting. He's got a small channel but he's a nice guy, so I've gifted him the game and asked him to do a Let's Play of the game. That should get done next week, and that's another purchase to add to Serellan's belt.

Cool!  Never thought to look up voice actors who do Let's Plays.

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I've also asked Bella Ryse for any news, as she's now Brand Manager of Serellan.

Bella Ryse is the brand manager of Serellan?  I only know about her work in Real Game Media and her kind tweets in support of YouTubers I follow.  When did that happen?

*Looks it up.*

Huh...  Apparently for a very long time, likely more than a year.  And possibly before she was even Editor In Chief at Real Game Media.  And she's the voice in Hotel Blind?

Ok seriously how long have I been living under this rock?  I need to get out into the sun and see society again because holy crap I'm oblivious!  Her Twitter clearly says she's the brand manager, geez...  Well I'm an idiot.

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Here's a bit of hope.

Couple of things?  Interesting.  Sounds like a possible multipart announcement.

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Agreed!

Yeah I do amateur voice acting for indie projects and animations and such, so I tend to try and make friends with others in hopes of getting help or calling in favours. :rocky: I suppose even if no one sees his videos, it's another sale and possibly a positive review for Epsilon.

I think Bella became Brand Manager fairly recently, because I really don't recall seeing it before. I definitely remember her being the voice in Hotel Blind at least. Pretty cool. It's good to have friends who can help!

Yeah "a couple of things" sounds promising. Hopefully a small update to the game and maybe some investment or something. Or it could be Christian saying he's going to work for another developer and come back to Epsilon later. Either way suits me fine.

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